Ange Davies - Effective Strategies for Managing Burnout

Stuart Cooke (00:00.87)

Hey guys, this is Stu from The Health Sessions and I am delighted to welcome Ange Davis to the podcast. Ange, how are you?

Angela Davies (00:07.406)

I'm great Stu, how are you?

Stuart Cooke (00:09.201)

Very well indeed. Excited to share this conversation and who knows where it will go, but I'm sure it's going to be hugely valuable. But first up, for all of our listeners that may not be familiar with you or your work, I would love it if you could just share a little about yourself, please.

Angela Davies (00:23.374)

Sure, I am a mental health and wellbeing speaker. So I spend a lot of time working with businesses, typically larger corporates, but all types of businesses on how to help their teams improve their performance through better mental health and wellbeing. I also host a podcast and have a Pilates studio as well. So really well integrated in the health and wellbeing space, but had spent 16 years in corporate leadership positions before that. So understand,

running a business and understanding business and have just turned to focus on helping people do better through well-being.

Stuart Cooke (01:02.877)

Fantastic, fantastic. So today I know that we're gonna talk at in depth around corporate burnout and how that may manifest itself, what we can do to try and address that. And no doubt there'd be a whole ton of information and tips that will be to share to our listeners as well. But I know that you come from a place of burnout, which I'm really keen to understand more of, because as we were just speaking off camera,

Angela Davies (01:20.428)

Mm.

Angela Davies (01:27.8)

Yep.

Stuart Cooke (01:30.65)

getting to the end of year and everybody's feeling a little burnt out themselves but I know that irrespective of whether we've got a holiday coming or not some people just can't clear it so I'm keen to hear your story.

Angela Davies (01:41.792)

Yeah, sure. I mean, I've experienced burnout a couple of times in my life. The first one, though, was when I was training for a marathon. And so I was just over training and doing F45, waking up early, just, you know, working too hard and training too hard. But most recently was, you know, I think we can all have good well-being while our lives are going well. You know, you can sort of continue pushing through when everything in your life is kind of tracking along. And then when you have

Stuart Cooke (01:50.31)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (02:11.648)

have some work challenge or personal challenge, you throw that on top of overwork and when your nervous system's a little overrun and very quickly it starts to penetrate the surface and get really deeply in. And for me, you know, it started with a miscarriage in the February. Two weeks later up here, we had the worst floods our region has ever seen. And at the time I was working in a banking leadership role.

and a large percentage of our customers were impacted. They either had their homes completely flooded, their businesses completely flooded so they couldn't trade, people were injured, they couldn't find their loved ones. And so very quickly, I had to turn my focus and my team's focus to helping our customers. A lot of them didn't even have ID, Stu. They didn't have any of their personal belongings to even access their bank accounts.

Stuart Cooke (03:03.44)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (03:06.592)

So very focused on that for months and months. So had to very quickly forget sort of my own personal stuff. And then about three months after the floods, my husband, Liam, who you know, has was diagnosed with a at the time life threatening medical condition. And I was like, my gosh, you know, you can sort of handle things that happen to yourself. And then when something happens to the person closest to you, that sort of really takes its toll as well. And my response to all of that was

Stuart Cooke (03:07.633)

wow.

Angela Davies (03:36.628)

to work harder. I thought the more I've worked, the further I would get away from the challenges that I was facing until I just completely burnt out and it manifested itself in panic attacks. So I was in a client meeting and I started just feeling the walls cave in around me. I couldn't breathe. I started getting dizzy and thankfully one of my team was there with me and I was able to excuse myself but I ended up pulled over on the side of the highway having a very serious

serious panic attack. I thought I was having a heart attack at the start. I did not know what was going on and I called Liam. He's ex special forces so he's very calm in a crisis and he very quickly just got me to roll my seat back and focus on my breath and it was the start of many more panic attacks to come and you know from a brain and psychological perspective panic attacks come when your nervous system is really at its tether. It cannot handle anymore.

and so it's almost like your body's alarm system saying we can't handle anymore like it's time to take stock and so that's what I did. I to listen to it.

Stuart Cooke (04:47.353)

Wow okay so where to from here obviously that I mean there's so much going on you've got potential physical overload because you know marathons and f-45 and everything and oftentimes people throw themselves into exercise as a coping mechanism but then you've got this psychological burden of everything perhaps that many of us can't even

Angela Davies (04:55.938)

Mm.

Angela Davies (05:02.092)

Mmm.

Stuart Cooke (05:12.293)

I guess quantify in terms of that being a load on your nervous system as well and contributing to what we're phrasing as burnout at the moment. With all that going on, how do you know where to start?

Angela Davies (05:15.405)

Mm.

Angela Davies (05:26.34)

God, it's a process, right? And I've learned this over time, but I think the biggest thing was a mindset shift for me that rest is productive because I am by nature an overachiever, A type personality.

rest time for me was still going and doing something physical and that pure mental rest is the place that we really need to start when we're in burnout. So for me it was even just starting with 10 minutes of solitude every single day and you you think god I don't have 10 minutes but you know we look at the screen time on our phone and I guarantee everyone will be able to find 10 minutes too you know and 10 minutes disappears very quickly on TikTok but

Stuart Cooke (06:09.67)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (06:13.022)

like an eternity in solitude.

Stuart Cooke (06:13.905)

It does.

Angela Davies (06:15.638)

and giving that brain time to rest. Because when we're experiencing all of these external internal burdens, our brain doesn't have time to rest and be. And particularly in today's world where we are stimulated by everything on our phones, people can contact us 24 seven. There's television, there's podcasts in our ears. We're constantly receiving information. So for me, solitude was where I started.

because it's what got me to connect back in with my body because that's what I wasn't doing. I was moving, I was still exercising and doing all of those things but I had no idea how I really felt because I was distracting myself with busyness.

Stuart Cooke (06:59.869)

Was that something that you had studied, researched? Did you go to maybe consult with somebody to be able to put you on that path?

Angela Davies (07:12.682)

I did my Vedic meditation course. that for me, it was funny. I was always someone who just

thought meditation was a little bit woo woo to be honest. And now, you know, there's so many scientific studies to back it up and I'm a huge proponent of meditation in a form that works for you. But so I did my Vedic meditation course and it was so difficult. That's 20 minutes twice a day. So it was so difficult for me to sit in that silence 20 minutes twice a day. But I started with that. And that's what really got me at least to connect into that quiet time, that solitude sitting by myself.

with nothing to do other than to just focus on my mantra which Vedic gives you and my breath and I just realized the power of it. Now I don't do Vedic meditation anymore I actually do a walking meditation for me that works for me but it's not a fast walk it's a very intentionally slow walk and then I also do just really specific pondering time where I sit out in nature and just ponder with nothing to think about but Vedic meditation is what initiates

got me into that. I did it because I was at my wit's like I was at my breaking point and I thought I've just got to try every I mean the A type personality in me is like what course can I do to like get myself out of this but in fact it really it really helped me significantly in understanding how I was actually feeling to check in with myself and then it allowed me the space to then start you know doing other things to try and improve my health and well-being.

Stuart Cooke (08:30.672)

Mmm. Yeah.

Stuart Cooke (08:49.063)

So how long do you think that it took from that point where you were pulled over at the side of the road and clearly overwhelmed to the point where you think I can see a change here and I'm feeling better and I'm feeling more on top of this and in control of this?

Angela Davies (08:57.655)

Mmm.

Angela Davies (09:05.346)

I mean, look, so it took for the, think for the full burnout to clear, it really took 18 months. And I know a lot of people don't want to hear that because it feels like a really long time, but I did start to see change within about four weeks with consistent behaviors, you know, so making sure I was shutting off my phone. So I wasn't overstimulated anytime after 7 p.m. You know, reading a book before bed, those sorts of things. So that I started having better sleeps because when I was in that state of burnout, Stu, I was also tired and wired.

So I was exhausted. I felt like I needed to sleep, but I would sit in bed with my mind racing. And I explain it like it feels like an electricity, like an electric cord with the end cut off, you know, like it's like that's sort of, that's how I was feeling as I was going to bed. So I wasn't getting good sleep. So working on my sleep time in solitude and actually slowing down my movement. Those things were the things that really helped me.

Stuart Cooke (09:36.582)

Yeah.

Stuart Cooke (09:50.876)

Mmm.

Angela Davies (10:05.088)

I could start to really feel a difference in sort of four weeks, but because it was such a, I mean, it was a pretty hectic year. So because it was so bad, I had to continue doing that for good 18 months before I felt like my vibrant self again. But if I'm being honest, I was probably on the verge of burnout for probably five years. You know what I mean? I just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing until those, external things happened and made me really reconsider how I had to be.

Stuart Cooke (10:34.417)

Yeah, interesting. And I'm very keen to dive into sleep, but I think we'll do that a little bit later. At the moment, I'm just thinking about self-assessment. So a lot of people listening to this are going to be thinking, you know, I don't feel great either, but it's coming up to Christmas. And I think everybody may feel like this because there's got so much going on. It's party time and we're trying to wrap up work and projects, et cetera. How would you recommend that we self-assess?

Angela Davies (10:40.183)

Mm.

Angela Davies (10:49.55)

Mm.

Angela Davies (10:55.011)

Mm.

Angela Davies (11:04.494)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (11:04.642)

in terms of whether we're just busy or whether we're on the verge of burnout.

Angela Davies (11:10.784)

Yeah, there's a couple of things that I do. So I've got a framework that I use once a month. It's a bit of a wellbeing check-in for myself. And I just rate myself out of 100 on five areas. So out of 100, I rate myself, how's my nutrition? Am I focusing on protein, fats, fiber, reducing sugar? How's my movement? Am I focusing on my movement every day? For me, I move every day because I...

tend towards anxiety. the movement is not just good for my longevity, it's good for my anxiety. So nutrition, movement, sleep.

really important nutrition, sleep, movement, relationships. So how my relationships, am I reaching out with friends, family, connecting to them? And then my mindfulness or my quiet time. So those are the five things that I'll rate myself out of a hundred. And I just take some quiet time to assess every month how I'm doing on those. know, if I haven't caught up with a friend all month, then my relationships might be a bit lower. And that's something I need to flex on. And, you know, if I look

at that and overall at this time of year I'm looking because typically our relationships will be low because we're just frazzled and can't get to anything. Our nutrition is probably slipping, we're know drinking more, eating more sugar because there's more events. Our movement is typically the first thing that goes out the window because we feel like we don't have time, people aren't spending time in solitude you know so and we're not sleeping well because we're maybe out later, we're eating later. So at this time of year you might see that well-being assessment, the numbers go

right down and so that's how I assess and if those numbers are down I just commit to doing one thing on each of those five that's going to move the dial and lift those up. Now I want to cover off it's normal to feel a little bit tired at this time of year right like that that is what it is there's more going on but I think we need to really prioritize our well-being so that we get to the end of the year

Angela Davies (13:13.618)

ready to jump into 2025 and not feel like we have been hit by a tsunami at the end of the year. And so that's what I do to self assess because you can kind of think you're going all right. And then when you sit down and really assess each of those five areas, you think, actually, I've literally eaten sugar every day this week. I've gone to bed at midnight because I've had events on and you start to get a wake up call or reality check to how you're well-being.

actually is and if all those scores are low consistently then you're on the fast track to burnout.

Stuart Cooke (13:50.919)

Great. While you were talking, it reminded me of the podcast that you've just released on the importance of being able to justify saying no to a lot of perhaps invitations that you may just not want to engage in at this time of year. And a lot of people are going to be thrust with staff parties and drinks and impromptu barbecues and gatherings and meetups and all that kind of stuff. And I think if you are feeling overwhelmed at this time of year,

Angela Davies (13:59.489)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (14:20.857)

Many of these can just push you over the top in terms of consuming more alcohol, staying up later, eating crappier food and just not having any time for yourself. So I'd love it if you could just talk a little bit about some of the strategies that you outlined in your podcast about the ability to say no without offending, please.

Angela Davies (14:28.238)

Mm.

Angela Davies (14:35.918)

you

Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think, you know, the reality is if we are honest when we say no with people, they typically won't take offense, right? Like, I don't know about you, Stu, but if someone gives me all these elaborate excuses, it's just a bit annoying. But if someone says, you know what I mean? I just think just, you know, we're all adults here. I just don't want to go. And so, you know, I had something on last Friday and I'd had a huge week of work and it got to Wednesday.

Stuart Cooke (14:54.205)

Yeah, I just don't want to go. I don't want to go.

Angela Davies (15:06.188)

and I thought about my future self. So what I try and do throughout the week is see what's coming up and thinking, is Ange on Friday going to want to go to this dinner that I've been invited to? I didn't know anyone else going, so I knew it was going to be a large energetic outlay, right? Because it's not with people that you know that you feel comfortable having a bit of silence with. There's a lot of small talk, a lot of questions and...

I knew that I just was not going to have the energy. So I literally text my friend. I was like, hey, I've had a huge week. I would absolutely love to come. But energetically, I need to rest or I'm not going to make it to the end of the year. Thank you so much for the invite. I would love to have a walk with you.

let me know what dates you're free and I will book it in, I'll make myself free. And so I think the honesty, number one, really important, just be honest about where you're at. People will respect that more than making excuses. Giving enough notice, you know, I knew that my friend was going to be buying and preparing food, so I thought about it in advance so that then it's not like she had catered for me knowing that I was going to go. So I gave her enough notice thinking how I would feel on Friday. And then I think that one of the most important things is if you're declining some

something out of courtesy. My view is if I decline something, it's now my job to set the next catch up because I've declined an offer from someone. So I need to be proactive in setting that next catch up. So that's what I do. I'll work in with your diary. You tell me when you're free and I'm going to book it in the calendar straight away to catch up with you next. And I think that then removes the feeling of rejection from that person. You know, it stops them feeling like you don't want to spend time with them. You're being really honest and you're providing another catch up and enough notice. So I think those are the

things, know, just looking at yourself, how would you like to receive a no and then giving people that courtesy back. But I always think honesty is the best policy.

Stuart Cooke (16:57.277)

Totally, totally. And I guess you don't want to be the party pooper as well. You're not the person that arrives there that really doesn't want to be there and it shows.

Angela Davies (17:02.836)

Exactly. Exactly. I like to be, you know, high energy if I'm going to be somewhere and, you know, if I can't be then a rest.

Stuart Cooke (17:11.287)

it exactly. So just to rewind a little bit you were speaking about your checklist and I think you covered five areas it was nutrition, think movement mindset, relationships and sleep. I wondered whether you could just perhaps provide a few quick wins on a couple of those as well because I know that again it's this time of year where we are going to be presented with lots of guilty pleasures and

Angela Davies (17:19.149)

Mm.

Angela Davies (17:24.694)

Mm.

Angela Davies (17:34.091)

Hmm.

Stuart Cooke (17:40.186)

We're going to be super busy, so we're not going to have as much time as we would perhaps normally have to do our walks and relax on our own. Where would we be able to perhaps find a little bit of extra space and re-energize ourselves, do think, from your list?

Angela Davies (17:56.45)

for sure, I'll probably give one on each topic and they're all things that are really easy to implement. And I'll start with mindset or mindfulness. And my favorite one for this time of year is finding moments of solitude. My favorite way to do that, people are so busy, get, know, our days are back to back.

But most of us will have some time where we are either walking or in the car by ourselves for the most part, right? Whether you're on public transport, if you live in a city, if you're driving somewhere, dropping the kids off, driving to the shops to do Christmas shopping, whatever that is, turn your music off, turn your radio off, turn your podcasts off.

have that quiet time because even if you're driving or you're walking, I really feel like having quiet time just helps your brain to down regulate it, stops it from continually ingesting information, particularly if you're listening to the radio, it's just noise a lot of the time, some of the segments they talk about. I think just taking that time, even if it's 10 minutes, if you're like, I've got 10 minutes till I get home, turn the radio off and just have that silence. It's remarkable.

Stuart Cooke (18:50.62)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (19:03.675)

how much of a reset that that

has for your brain and your feeling of overwhelm because we constantly just overstimulated. So I think that's a really good one for mindfulness. The other one I'll add in there are, and you've heard me talk about this before, Stewart Stanford breaths. So these breaths have been studied at Stanford University and they're the fastest way to calm your nervous system into rest and digest. So it's a big inhale through the nose, an extra sip of air at the top.

and then a big long exhale all the way out. And you do that three to five times and it very quickly calms your nervous system. So a good place to do it is just before you get out of the car, before you go into the house, you just commit to doing three Stanford breaths. And all of us can do that. You can do it anywhere, anytime, or maybe when you go to the bathroom, just take that moment to do three Stanford breaths. So taking 10 minutes of solitude and silence in the car, turn the radio off, and then doing your Stanford breaths is a really good one for mindfulness.

Yes, in terms of sleep, so for me, phone out of the bedroom. That's my biggest tip. Keep it away. If you use it as your alarm, my suggestion is always go to Kmart and get an alarm clock. They're like 20 bucks.

Stuart Cooke (20:05.756)

Very good.

Angela Davies (20:23.744)

If you feel like you really don't wanna do that or you've got a reason to have your phone in the bedroom, put it away from your bed so that you can't reach it you naturally can't pick it up first thing in the morning or while you're in bed. So you create a little bit of a barrier to that. And that just means you're closing down your day without that overstimulation. And when you wake up in the morning, you're starting the day feeling like you're in control of the day rather than something on your screen controlling the way that you start the day.

getting an email or a text message or opening social media to something that annoys you or some bad news on the Apple News app, you can start your day in your own way. Again, it's no extra effort to do this. You're going to sleep and waking up anyway. It's just around removing something that's going to cause extra stimulation and overwhelm for your brain. There's a really good app called Opal, O-P-A-L, and that app you can set your screen limit times. So you're not able to actually

open certain apps on your phone between certain times. So I find that really helpful if we're finding it difficult, know, the apps make it very easy to be addicted. yeah, trying to sort of take that, take that away, which is really helpful. So phone away from the bed and away from the bedroom to help with good sleep. Use the Opal app if you need to. I always say have at least the first 20 minutes of the day without looking at your phone.

Stuart Cooke (21:34.492)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (21:47.878)

Great.

Angela Davies (21:53.942)

onto relationships. So relationships can be a funny one at this time of year. We're often spending time with, you know, maybe challenging family members or, you know, you go into shops and people are stressed and you sort of sometimes see the worst in behaviors at this time of year. So from a relationship perspective, there's two tips I love. The first one is just think about one kind thing you can do for a stranger every day. Doesn't matter what it is. One of my favorite ones is if I'm at the shops and I see someone who looks

looks really nice in their outfit, I literally just go up to them and say, you look so lovely today, your outfit looks really nice. What that does is it actually gives you a really nice boost of oxytocin, which is your relationship and sort of happy hormone, and it makes them feel good too. So what a nice way to just like work on a relationship with a stranger.

The other one is an eight minute phone call. So a lot of us won't make a phone call because we think, God, I don't have like 30 minutes to sit on the phone with this person. But researchers shown that eight minutes is actually all you need to build a connection. And if someone's having a tough time, it helps actually lift them out of that tough time. So, you know, say you've got a 20 minute car ride, could you do an eight minute phone call to someone that you haven't spoken to in a while and then 10 minutes of solitude? So an eight minute phone call and a random act of kindness for a stranger.

really good ways to work on your relationships and they really help with those positive relationship feelings. Yeah.

Stuart Cooke (23:21.146)

Fantastic, great advice.

Angela Davies (23:23.506)

And they're easy, right? Like I'm trying to give things that are not overwhelming, you know, like it's not about doing another 50 things during the day. It's just you're doing things anyway. So how can you optimize them for you to be able to prevent your burnout or feel better in terms of ingesting nutritious food? I mean, you're definitely the expert probably over me on this one, Stu. But I think the biggest one for me is limiting sugar at night time. You know, I understand.

Stuart Cooke (23:26.331)

Super easy.

Stuart Cooke (23:36.753)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (23:49.516)

There's going to be times when you're going out and eating, you can't always control the food and you know, I think...

There's something to be said about the happiness shared over food too. So, you know, I'm not saying people need to completely cut things out and, you know, be so strict, but sugar at night time ties back into sleep. And so the more sugar we eat later in the day, the worse we're going to sleep, which means we wake up the next morning and we make really poor choices with our food for the rest of the day. It leaves us feeling foggy, unengaged and tired. And when we feel that way, it just leads to that perpetual cycle of feeling like we're burning out and not engaged.

So I always just say if you're going to have a little sweet treat because it's the time of year, try and have, I call it lunch dessert, you know, have it in the afternoon rather than the evening.

The other thing is just being aware of your alcohol intake. know, again, not the fun police here. If you want a few drinks, you do you. Just be aware of the impact that it is going to have on your sleep and just choose the days that you're going to do it. You know, look ahead at your event calendar and say, you know what, these are the two or three events that I am going to have a drink at and the rest of them, I'm just going to stick with the sodas because I know maybe the day after that, I've got some big meetings or some things that I need to be doing. So I don't want to be feeling, you know,

down and not focused. looking ahead at that event, Kalloran, choosing the events that you want to have a drink at. There's some really interesting research that says that anything over two drinks, you might as well have 30 based on the impact that it has on your sleep. So this is not a open call to have 30 instead of two, but rather just being aware that if you have a few drinks, it'll give you that initiative, initial sedative effect. So you'll feel like it's sending you

Stuart Cooke (25:23.526)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (25:36.504)

to sleep but what it does is as your body starts to metabolize that alcohol it jolts you awake in the middle of the night and I think anyone who's had a few drinks will know that they sort of feel like they get to sleep and then at 2 3 a.m. they're back up wide awake and so that's sort of how it really impacts your sleep so just being aware and planning the events you're have your drinks out and then

Stuart Cooke (25:57.488)

Fantastic.

Angela Davies (25:58.936)

Finally on a movement perspective. So my favorite one for this is downsize. Don't delete, you know, I do this, you know, I've had a really full couple of weeks and I haven't had the time, you know, it's 20 minutes to my gym. I spend an hour there 20 minutes home, have a shower. That's two hour turnaround, right for me. And I just haven't had the two hours in the day to be doing that. So what I've done rather than saying I can't exercise at all is I've downsized my exercise. I'm doing exercise.

at home, I've got weights at home, you can do body weight exercise through an app, that's what I do. And I just, it's half an hour. So, you know, in my mind, I'm like, great, I've got an hour and a half back in my day when I usually would have had two hours out for exercising, but I'm still moving my body because it's so important for your mental health. It gives you that little boost of dopamine when you're doing it. So you always feel great after it. But it's really about checking in with your body because if you're feeling overtired as well, going into

doing a HIIT session might not be the best thing that your body needs, right? It might just be something a little bit more soothing, a bit more slow. So maybe weights, but just slower. You know, don't have to move in that high intensity, fast paced environment. Maybe a bit of Pilates, maybe a bit of yoga, maybe a brisk walk, something like that.

Stuart Cooke (27:03.76)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (27:17.524)

If you're struggling still to get any of that in, my favorite tip is 10 squats every hour. Set a timer on your phone, stand up at your desk, do 10 squats every hour. There's some cool research that says that doing 10 squats every hour actually reverses the negative impacts of sitting down all day. So that's something we can all do. If you feel embarrassed doing it in an office, just go outside and do it. You can do it in the bathroom, you know, but I think that's something that we can all do. It boosts creativity, it helps focus,

helps get that blood flow back through the body. So that's something that I think is really easy that we can all do that helps to keep us moving.

Stuart Cooke (27:56.764)

Boy boy, lots and lots and lots of little nuggets of information there that I'm sure people are going to be rewinding and furiously writing down exactly what they are. And I wanted to speak a little bit to one of them where you just find that little slot of time and just reconnect outside of social media, outside of notifications and podcasts and music and all of that stuff. And I find that fascinating because...

Angela Davies (28:03.34)

haha

Angela Davies (28:14.999)

Hmm.

Stuart Cooke (28:22.781)

Last year, I decided I was going to increase my steps every single day and just try and hit this number of steps just to see what happened as a little bit of a personal experiment. And I found that a couple of months in, I was listening to podcasts and music and I just thought, I'm not going to take my phone today. And as the hours and weeks progressed, I started to really enjoy the time without the phone and realized that problem solving became easier.

Angela Davies (28:32.44)

Mm.

Angela Davies (28:52.174)

Mmm.

Stuart Cooke (28:52.464)

because I had this capacity then to slowly start to think and unpack problems and work on solving ideas as well. And I think it's that continual input, that continual chatter that comes about when many of us might think, you know, I'm just gonna have some quiet time. I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna take my phone. I'm gonna go through socials for half an hour, but it's kind of quiet time, but it isn't.

Angela Davies (29:13.358)

Hmm.

Angela Davies (29:18.444)

Yep.

Stuart Cooke (29:19.099)

because that stimulation and that gamification of whatever social channel we're on kicks into play and we're being served ads and all this stimulating media. Before you know it, you've lost an hour and a half. Your brain feels scrambled because again, you've just accepted so much information. So I really liked that idea of just unplug because it's funny where it takes you and I come from a time before mobile phones, before internet and...

Angela Davies (29:45.998)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (29:47.376)

being bored was kind of normal. Like sometimes you were bored and you daydreamed and that was where you had your thoughts and made your plans. And those days are slipping away because now we've got connection wherever we are, whether we're car play in the car or we've got our headphones in and we're listening to something. So I really do resonate with that. And I think that one is key to be able to perhaps work into a lot of your other

Angela Davies (29:49.24)

Yep.

Angela Davies (30:03.886)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (30:16.613)

other foundational pillars as well in terms of having better quality sleep and maybe concentrating more on our exercise than listening to what is coming through our headphones. it's interesting. I just thought I'd mention it because it's an endemic. just think we've just got this. It's a never ending stream of noise that just comes in from every angle. And I think that can be that can really continually inflame burnout, I think, because we're never

Angela Davies (30:30.038)

Mm.

Angela Davies (30:44.814)

Absolutely. We're never resting. You know, I was at the post office the other day and I try where I can. No one's perfect, right? But I try where I can if I'm in the supermarket queue, if I'm in the post office queue, not to be looking at my phone, but just standing, observing, might do a few Stanford breaths, might just stand and observe and just be quiet. And these are the micro moments that, you know,

Stuart Cooke (30:45.506)

truly resting.

Angela Davies (31:10.954)

Even only 10 years ago, we would all have in silence, right? We would all have those moments of just silence, sitting there, standing there, daydreaming, you know, thinking about different things. You might think about a work problem you have and you can think of a creative way to solve it. And now, because we have our phones, we are constantly stimulated. And I agree, I think it is one of the biggest contributors to burnout is the constant stimulation because our brain is never, ever resting.

Stuart Cooke (31:30.524)

Yeah.

Stuart Cooke (31:40.368)

Yeah. And, and it's, it's a big, it's very energy intensive, the brain when we're thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, we're burning energy, like we're using this muscle as well. and I'm sure if you know, like the marathon, like there will come a time when you just can't run anymore. It's just too much. Similarly with the brain, like stop.

Angela Davies (31:46.03)

Mmm.

Angela Davies (31:51.266)

Yep.

Angela Davies (31:58.018)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it just hasn't. Well, I mean, and that is ultimately what leads to panic attacks and things like that, right? Because your brain and your body and your nervous system is just like, OK, I've had enough. I'm trying to give you a signal that enough is enough. so, yeah, the time in solitude, I think, is a real superpower. And I think the people who realize that and spend their time 10, 20 minutes every day in solitude are actually the ones who will be far more successful and also

happy in life because you know don't know not to go down a rabbit hole with it but I think when you're scrolling on your phone I don't know if you ever look back and just think what on earth did I just watch like who cares yeah what a waste

Stuart Cooke (32:42.052)

Yeah, I can't get that time back. That's gone. Exactly, exactly right. Exactly right. I had a question about balance because you are somebody who you're juggling many roles. So there's lots of corporate stuff going on. You've got your podcast now. You've got your Pilates, all the mind your grit stuff and exercise in between, fill in the blanks, relationships and social social stuff. How do you ensure balance?

Angela Davies (32:55.918)

Mm.

Stuart Cooke (33:10.989)

From a business perspective, I know that you are extremely organized. Do you have a particular structure that enables you to perhaps notarize or diarize everything that then gives you peace of mind and rest because you know that you've got systems working for you you don't feel burdened with things that you think, I've got to do this, I might forget. There's so much going on, I feel overwhelmed. What do you do in that sphere?

Angela Davies (33:37.578)

Yeah, I mean, I there's a couple of things I'll touch on with this, too. The first one is I don't ever believe that everything is an equal balance. You know, like I think that this word balance is a bit of a sort of aspirational thing that then people feel bad that they can never get to. There will always be times when there is ebbs and flows in things. You know, sometimes I'll be spending my two hours going to the gym and things like that. And then other times I'll be spending more time at work. But it's around just ebbing and flowing.

Recognizing that there are some times in the in the week or month where you're going to be work heavy And so you need to downsize some of your other habits never delete for me It's always about making sure that they're in there. There are non-negotiables that I'll talk through But just understanding that there's an ebb and flow and not being hard on yourself about that because I think what also leads to burnout is our own self sort of

being hard on ourselves because we're not doing everything the way that we should be or the way that we wanted to be. So I think also being easy on ourselves helps to prevent burnout. everything is in my calendar stew. So on a Sunday.

I will spend 20 minutes, it's not labor intensive, but I'll put everything in my calendar for the week. So I book all of my gym sessions, a lot of my work and my client work sort of already booked in. But when I book my client work in, I schedule it based on knowing what my mental capacity is, if that makes sense. So if I know that I've got, you know, five big client things or four big client things on that week, I'm also teaching 20 Pilates classes a week. So that's all scheduled in my calendar.

Stuart Cooke (35:04.464)

Yep. Yep.

Angela Davies (35:15.52)

I'll make sure that I'm scheduling things based on how I know my energy is going to be. You know, we're recording this podcast at 10 a.m. I know my high energy hours are nine till 12 or eight till 12. So that's when I do my thinking work, when I want to be really switched on. So first things first, my client work sort of scheduled in any way because it's scheduled in advance. I then book all of my exercise and gym sessions in around that. So whether that is a 30 minute home workout, whether it's going to the gym, whether it's going to a Pilates class, that's booked in.

travel time either side because the reality is you could book that in and if it gets bookended with something and you can't travel there it's not going to get done.

So my exercise is a meeting with myself. And then I also put in time to catch up with friends or date night with my husband. So, you know, whether it's a walk with a friend or date night, I put that in. And then I also put my thinking time for the business in as well. You know, I'm pretty ingrained with my solitude time now. You know, I know when I've got breaks in the day, I take time for solitude, but that's how I make sure

that I'm getting everything in and I actually program rest into my day because I bookend my days with pilates. So I start really early and I often finish late and the old me felt guilty about resting in the middle of the day because I was like, God, I don't want to, know, if Liam was ever working at home and he came out and saw me sleep, you know, sleeping or resting or napping, I'd be like, I'm not being lazy. I'm just having a little, he's like, you are the least lazy person I know.

Stuart Cooke (36:51.836)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (36:53.744)

So I think really just changing my perception of rest. And then what I do is I color code everything. So my exercise is in yellow, my relationship times in pink, my rest times in green, and then my work is in dark blue, my pilates is in light blue. So I'm then able to look across my week and say, do I have the right feeling based on my week of each of those things?

Stuart Cooke (36:55.238)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (37:23.062)

Am I making sure there's movement on every day? Am I making sure I've got at least a few catch ups with friends in there? Is there rest in every day? And then obviously the work, the work is there. that's how I do it so that I can make sure that I'm, you know, color coding it for me. I mean, it sounds, you know, quite basic, but color coding it for me just makes me be able to look over the week and see if it feels like the right balance in inverted commas.

Stuart Cooke (37:35.26)

That's excellent.

Stuart Cooke (37:50.62)

Yeah.

Angela Davies (37:51.02)

That's going to look different every week, but making sure that it feels to me like I've got enough time for all the things I want within my week.

Stuart Cooke (37:59.387)

I knew that you would have a structure going. And I like that you block out exercise as well because then it happens, right? And then you know that it's a non-negotiable for you you need to make that happen. That's fantastic. Wow, that is a system.

Angela Davies (38:01.42)

Ha ha ha

Angela Davies (38:06.958)

Mm.

Yep.

Angela Davies (38:14.976)

Yeah, it's my absolute non-negotiable. Movement every day is my non-negotiable. Yep.

Stuart Cooke (38:19.428)

Yeah. Great. Fantastic. Well, Ange, we are slowly coming up on time, but I just wanted to ask you just about your podcast, because I know that just launched a podcast and got some great episodes already at this stage. Tell us a little bit about what to expect, why you started it and also where to go to find it.

Angela Davies (38:43.424)

Yeah, thank you. What to expect. So it's called Work and Wellness. And the reason I started this podcast is because I believe that you can be really successful in your career and maintain strong well-being. And I think there's a bit of a myth that you have to give up one to have the other. Either you've got good well-being and you might not be so successful in your career or you're really successful in your career and you end up

like me with panic attacks on the side of the road. And I feel like there's a way that both can exist. And so the episodes really center around either very practical advice. So, you know, one of the episodes is on things like how to say no, both in a work context and a personal context. So it's really how you thrive at work and ensure really strong wellbeing. And then there'll be a variety of guests on. So I've got you obviously on Stu. We talk a lot about your journey and, you know, running businesses and how you look after your wellbeing.

So practical tips and I think that's the biggest focus for me on the podcast is really practical tips rather than sort of this highly intellectualized sort of cerebral advice. What can we actually do that's really easy to implement that's going to be the biggest bang for buck because we're all very busy. So it's on Apple and Spotify. It's called Work and Wellness. And yeah, I love it. think, you any way that we can get out more information to people on how to improve their well-being in a

era where well-being is very quickly on the decline. know people are getting more and more burnt out, know more and more mental health issues so how do we get ahead of it and be really proactive about it.

Stuart Cooke (40:19.76)

Fantastic. Well, that's great. We'll put the address and everything that you've spoken about in the show notes, which is great. Podcasts, I think probably being the medium that I have learned the most from outside of books and TV and social media, podcasts definitely. I just think that when you're into a decent podcast and you really align with the host, like I can listen for hours and hours. I love it. So good.

Angela Davies (40:31.054)

Mmm.

Angela Davies (40:42.348)

Yeah, I think it's great and it's accessible too Stu. You know, you sort of think, you know, people aren't, I guess there's audio books, but people aren't sort of reading books. I'm a huge proponent of reading. I love reading, but you know, it's really accessible. You can do all your driving while you're walking. And yeah, I think you can just hear some really interesting people that you wouldn't otherwise have come across. I agree. I think it's a great medium.

Stuart Cooke (41:04.986)

Yeah, definitely. No, I completely agree. So what's next for Ange Davis? Obviously you're super busy already. I'd be surprised if you did have anything else to add to that question.

Angela Davies (41:13.998)

Hahaha

I know, I mean, think, you know, continuing with the podcast, I'll continue doing my workshops for corporates, doing the Pilates studio. I would love to write a book in the future. That's definitely next. And maybe take my wellbeing corporate workshops into a TED talk, maybe one of those. So that's on the horizon. But really, I'm just about getting practical tips into the ears of people to just improve their work and their wellness.

Stuart Cooke (41:36.07)

Yeah. Brilliant. Do it.

Stuart Cooke (41:46.8)

Fantastic. And for our listeners that want to find out more, obviously we've spoken about the podcast, but where can they find you, like your Pilates stuff, mind your grit and everything under the sun that you do? What best address for us to send?

Angela Davies (41:58.494)

Yes, so on Instagram it's mind.your.grit and on Pilates Instagram is grit.pilates and then I'm on LinkedIn as well. So I write an article on LinkedIn every week. So just Angela Davies, D-A-V-I-E-S on LinkedIn. But yeah, anything anyone wants to know. I'm always happy to have a chat in messages or DMs. I do it a lot. So that's where you can find me.

Stuart Cooke (42:27.069)

Okay, fantastic. Thank you. I will put all of those links in the show note and Angie, it's been an absolute joy. I really, really got a lot out of this podcast and I'm sure I'll listen some more too. So thank you again and we'll chat soon.

Angela Davies (42:39.768)

Thanks, Stu.